Lyndsey pivots from Physical Therapy to UX Research.

Samaya: Awesome. I just wanted to take some time to meet with you today to talk through more of your emotional journey as you were discovering UX, getting into UX, learning UX for the first time. And now that you're at the portfolio and resume stage, applying to UX jobs, and really actively transitioning careers and making the pivot, crystallizing into reality. So I kind of want to touch on all those themes. I think we could get started by, you know, just talking through how did you first discover UX or figure out that this was something that you wanted to do.

“UX came up as an option. And I had never heard of it at all. And so I read about it, they would do like spotlights with different members.“

Lyndsey: So about a year ago, I signed up for a group that's dedicated to helping therapy professionals select physical therapy, occupational therapy, transition out of patient care roles into non patient care roles. So within this group, it's just like a community on LinkedIn. UX came up as an option. And I had never heard of it at all. And so I read about it, they would do like spotlights with different members. And a few of them are service designers with like health care companies and stuff like that. And a lot of what they were saying resonated.

Lyndsey: But I didn't like pursue it fully, I think. Like, we were still kind of in this weird place with the pandemic, and I just wasn't sure. So I circled back to at the end of the year, so the end of 2021, like around November. And that's when I started doing informational interviews. And I started reaching out and just being like, does anyone know anything about this UX thing? Like, it just seems cool. So I spoke to five different women, who were all like in service design, UX design, I don't think I spoke to a UX researcher. And they just all were like, none of them had any like formal training. All of them had transitioned from varying backgrounds. And all of them really enjoyed what they do. So I spoke to one woman really in depth, I thought she was going to be like a mentor. For me. This would have been like, January of like, this year, it didn't end up working out as far as like her mentoring me, but the best thing she did is she turned me on to Hexagon. And they have a Slack community. And I found Ideate Labs through hexagon.

“I do need to change careers. I don't want to be in the same spot a year from now.“

Lyndsey: And I joined your newsletter. It's right when you started talking about your cohort. I knew that. So once I made the decision that like, oh, UX was my was what I was going to transition into. That's after I spoke to all these women. And I was like, oh, yeah, I kind of feel like this is my thing. I knew I would need some sort of like formalized education. Because that's just how my brain works. I'm not, I'm not someone who, who can like self study, like, I need homework, I see the sign within, like, I need a teacher. Like, I'm just like a big nerd like that. So I looked into bootcamps, and the price was just like, oh, no, I have enough student loans, I was like, I guess I'm going to self study route. And then I found Ideate Labs. I joined your Slack community. And I was getting your emails, and they were just always at the right time. Oh, yeah, I do need to change careers. I don't want to be in the same spot a year from now. They were just like, oh, man, they were always so perfect. I just I finally was like okay, I'm gonna do it. Like I'm just gonna hop on a call because there was the free call. And Khrys and I had a call and I after that call, I was like, oh, this one all right, guys, I gotta find the money because this is it.

Lyndsey: So then you and I had a call, which just supported even more for me, because I, the UX piece like, was really resonating, but the design piece was like very like I'm not that girl. I am not. It's artistic. I'm a creative girl, but I'm not an artist. So when Khrys was talking about UX research, it was like, oh, my God, this is my thing. And I spent the money, and I'm so glad that I did. Oh, my God. Like, it's the best. So yeah, that's that's sort of how I found UX was very quick. But it didn't feel quick that in hindsight, it was very quick.

Samaya: Well, I actually would like to backtrack to the point where you were still kind of talking to these different designers back in November. And you said you'd kind of heard about UX through Non Clinical PT. And then you kind of left it as it is, and then came back to it. So what made you come back to it?

Lyndsey: So what made me circle back to it is I was applying for non-clinical jobs in like a different area. It was more like clinical informatics and like, business administration, health administration kind of stuff. And I wasn't really getting many responses from my resumes. But I also wasn't really that upset about it, because I was reading the job descriptions, and my eyes were glazing over. So it was like, I knew that it wasn't right for me. But I, like didn't know what else to do. So I like applied for like, a couple of months. And I was like, this is not getting anywhere. So that's when I came back to UX and really learned about it like, versus just like, I had been reading these like bios of people who was doing it. Yeah. But I didn't actually know what it actually was.

“I think it was all the enthusiasm that all of these women had for the job“

Samaya: Okay, I think it's just says so much about you that you're a researcher at heart because you started interviewing all these designers. And that's something we recommend in the course, you know, as we're talking through the careers aspect of it at the end of the course, but you already did that. And I think that's so amazing. And I guess what did you learn from those conversations that kind of sealed the deal? That yes, now, I'm definitely going for this career path. This is the one for me.

Lyndsey: I think it was the enthusiasm that all of these women had for the job. And so, and it was kind of across the board, like some of them have been doing it at least 10 years, in different capacities. Some of them were like brand new, they had been in more of a product role. And they had sort of transitioned within their companies to UX. So they were maybe like, technically doing UX, in less than a year. But they were all so enthusiastic about it. And I think the timing, they were all so clear about the work life balance, and how they really felt they were actually making a difference. And I just think its the timing of the world, right? There was like this great resignation going on. Like nobody liked their job. Last year, everybody hated their job, right? So it was nice to meet a handful of people that liked their jobs, even if they didn't necessarily like their company. Their enthusiasm was just very refreshing, especially after working in healthcare.

Samaya: I can definitely relate to that, where you might not necessarily like everything about the company. It's never a completely all in love relationship. But something is giving you the purpose and driving you to do the work every day and be really invested in the work because, like you said they all had an impact in what they were doing. So I guess I'm curious now, kind of switching gears based on these conversations with the women and after discovering Ideate Labs. How did you start to piece together what you wanted to do for your project topic for Ideate Labs? And what made you choose the topic that you did?

“And I was just sort of looking around at a lot of the women in my life, and we were all trying to find our footing after this pandemic.

And like, you know, a lot of my friends are new moms. And you know, we work in a caregiving space and just trying to figure out, like, how do we find ourselves again, after like, two years of survival mode?”

Lyndsey: Honestly, it was like just intuition. I got to that happy hour that we did. And Cole was like what’s everyone doing for their project. So, when we talked in the happy hour, and it was like, yeah, you're gonna do like a project, fully your thing? And I was just like, oh, it was just at that point, it was just like, pure intuition. What do I care enough about to actually follow through on for the next like, three months? Because I was, I was thinking I could do something in this accessibility space, or whatever. Because sure, that will probably make it easier for me to get a job, right? Because I can easily sort of rebrand the healthcare experience. But, you know, the truth is, I didn't really care that much about it. So I had done some free accessibility classes. And it was interesting, but it wasn't enough to push me to, like, really care to do it for three months. And I was just sort of looking around at a lot of the women in my life, and we were all trying to find our footing after this pandemic. And like, you know, a lot of my friends are new moms. And you know, we work in a caregiving space and just trying to figure out, like, how do we find ourselves again, after like, two years of survival mode? So, yeah, it was kind of just like intuition and I wanted to do something to help caregivers, and then you and Rachel sort of helped me from there.

Samaya: Let's talk through the first couple of weeks in the program. So now you'd kind of figured out your project topic. And you were starting to learn more of the research and strategy side of things. So this is kind of an open space to talk about, you know, we're also trying to make this even more accessible than it is now so we're trying to implement a fully online version of this so that it can be more self paced and go at your own pace but still have the mentor available whenever you need it.

“I think I really enjoyed the first few weeks of the course. Because I guess because I was kind of in the mindset. I was here for the research and strategy piece of it.“

Lyndsey: I think I really enjoyed the first few weeks of the course. Because I guess because I was kind of in the mindset. I was here for the research and strategy piece of it. So I realized, and I also feel like there's a very distinctive teaching style between you and Khrys. We had a set agenda and we knew what we were doing. We had our little group assignments, so I really enjoy that style. I could definitely see other people that may not have been their jam but I really enjoyed that.

Lyndsey: Yeah, I think the, the discovery interview piece was overwhelming. And I was also really glad because I didn't really know much about like the nitty gritty of the process. So I was learning it in real time. I was very glad in hindsight that I chose a project where I already had access to users. So I was glad that like, I intuitively was like, I'm going to do something for caregivers. And I like knew where to find them. Like I had all these friends and patients who are like caregivers to older adults. So it was like, I was glad that I wasn't trying to find the users to talk to, at the same time that I was trying to figure out like what I was able to do. Yeah. So I think that made that first part of the project, part of the cohort, like really enjoyable for me. And when I was doing a discovery interview, it kind of clicked. I was like, oh, this is like what I'm supposed to do. Like it clicked very quickly. So yeah, that I really enjoyed those first few weeks. I met with Rachel every week. And she was very available. Super flexible. So that was great. I thought that was a great sort of balance. You had your office hours, too. So I thought that was great. To be able to just like have one, the Zoom call and like, ask anything. I felt very safe to like, ask dumb questions.

“And when I was doing a discovery interview, it kind of clicked. I was like, oh, this is like what I'm supposed to do. Like it clicked very quickly. So yeah, that I really enjoyed those first few weeks.“

Samaya: Okay, that's awesome. And I'm curious, you know, how could you feel we could make this even more accessible than it is. So we've, we've been starting to launch a fully self paced version of this, and add all our videos and workshops online. But what do you think could make it even more accessible? So I think for those folks who are still kind of trying to transition careers, still kind of reeling from the pandemic, and who maybe didn't have as regimented of an approach as you did, you decided to talk to designers, you decided to get in. But I think from what I'm sensing, a lot of people are still very much unsure and uncertain, and almost fearful of taking that jump into UX or transition, because change is really hard. And stepping out of your comfort zone in that way, is super hard. And you just did it. And you're swimming, and kudos to that. But I guess were moments where you were feeling out of place? What were some of those moments? Where you felt, okay, this is I'm out of place here, but I'm learning something new, it's uncomfortable.

Lyndsey: I kind of just made the decision that it was like, I invested in myself, so I'm going to show up for myself. So for me, like, even just like reaching out to users, just like asking strangers like to have 30 minutes of their time was like, oh my god, like it was like traumatizing. So I just like made myself do it. I remember like scheduling a lot of my calls. Like, I was like, waiting to go to an appointment. And I was like sitting in the car and you have that like 20 minutes, where it's like, I can scroll Instagram or I can like randomly like Slack people and ask them if they'll help me. So I just like made this effort to like, just do the thing that I'm scared of because like, I paid all this money. So like, I gotta make it worth my while. Right.

“I kind of just made the decision that it was like, I invested in myself, so I'm going to show up for myself.”

Lyndsey: It's funny, like the other thing I did personally is I didn't tell anybody what I was doing. So I had one friend and my mother and that was it, like nobody else knew, because I couldn't handle the pressure of “How's the cohort going?”. Like I couldn't, I couldn't do it. Okay, so I just had these two people that knew. And they knew like, don't ask me, don't ask me. And I say that because I actually found out very recently that a friend of mine, he is very interested in trying UX. And I sent him your guys’ information. And he's very much in the space that you're talking about where he signed up for, like, I don't remember. Was it Coursera? And it was like, he was sort of bummed because he was like, I was really excited about it. But it didn't get me like an actual portfolio piece. Like, it didn't move me forward. So I had sent him like the Ideate Labs stuff, because I'm like, they will move you forward. Like if you're really serious about this. So I haven't spoken to him recently to see like, where he's headed that with it. Yeah, but I'm trying to think like, what would get him like to actually take that leap and like, invest in himself? I think having the fully online, self paced course with just like the intermittent check in with a mentor would be good. He's working full time, and he has two kids. So him like trying to negotiate the live classes, I could see that being a deterrent to him. Because the reality is, we do have to invest in ourselves, which means we're divesting from something else. So in this case, it's the kids, which feels sort of crappy. Yeah. So to be able to, like, work around and do this, like after they go to bed. Yeah, that wouldn't feel so wrong. Yeah. So I think that's a big thing. I think, you know, the price piece of it. I think, I think because I had done my research. I didn't balk at the price as much, because I'm like, I'm getting so much more for the price. Like, I know people who've done my Career Foundry. And it's like $10,000, and they only have like a weekly mentor.

Samaya: That's really interesting about, you know, hearing about his life, I can totally see now why he needs his time. And he's going to be someone working late at night or early in the morning when he's not with the kids. And you know, life gets very chaotic. And so thinking through that is what we want and who we want to help. But I think there's also the component of online classes, which we've read. And this is why we went the opposite of, like, fully self paced courses at first, is because only 3% of people who purchase end up actually going through every single module and actually using it. And I purchase online courses all the time. And I am the same way. I'm like, oh, yeah, I need to do that finance course I bought, I paid the money, I need to do it. And it's like in the back of my head, but I haven't done most of it yet. And so it's like, okay, what is that thing? Like you said, we we push you forward in the live course because its live. There's no escaping us. We're gonna like hunt you down. In a good way!

“What advice would you give someone who's anxious around money and the idea of investing money into themselves?”

Samaya: Its kind of just a question that Khrys and I have been mulling over. How do we still provide that push? Yeah, I mean, technically, you've paid the funds. So we won't have to care anymore. But we do care. Because what's the point? What's the point of investing if you're not doing it? I think. For me, investing in education has always been a big deal because I I went through grad school and that was a big investment and I had to quit my job and I still had to figure out how to pay the bills. But I knew like you I was committed. I was like, I'm going, I have to do this. It's the only way I'm gonna get to push myself forward, and I need the structure. And so it's hard to kind of balance the money side of things. And I think we should talk more about the finances and the kind of worry that comes with money, especially in times of uncertainty, because right now, we are getting into an uncertain period, again, the recession, not recession, but 2020 was a mini recession, people were rethinking their lives. So I'm curious kind of, what are your thoughts on this? Or what advice would you give someone who's anxious around money and the idea of investing money into themselves?

Lyndsey: Yeah, I, that was like, that was honestly like, the biggest hang up for me, like, I met with Khrys and met with you. I was like, I'm doing this. But the money thing was great. And for me, like I had to savings to do it, it was just like, moving them up. And like, even that was like, it's the uncertainty, it's the doubt, it's, you know, who am I to, like, invest this much in myself? Right? When there's no, quote, unquote, guarantee on the other side of this, that, like, you'll get a job, and that's right. But for me, I did feel very confident. And I said this to Khrys, in one of our calls, I was like, I feel very confident that, like, if you teach me the skill to do this, like, then I'll figure it out. You know what I mean? Like, I'll figure it out from there. So I do feel like the money is, yeah, there's a lot of doubt. And there's a lot of fear around that piece of it. And a part of me is like, you know, I'm just thinking in my head, I'm like, yeah, does offering that payment plan, like, make it feel less scary, right? But yeah, I don't know, a part of me, it's kind of like, if you're not at that place where it's like, I'm gonna do this. Then it kind of I wonder if it becomes like, the self-paced course, where it's like, you signed up for it, but then you find yourself like, not showing up for it? Fully? Yeah. Versus like, you put your money out? So it's like, okay, I really gotta like, do this, you know?

“It’s the uncertainty, its the doubt. Its the: who am I to invest so much in myself? But for me, I did feel very confident.”

Samaya: And I think that's why the maybe for a self paced course, on monthly installment works, because if I'm investing, say, $500, into my education every month for 10 months, then I'm gonna do it. I'm paying really good money to do it. So I'm motivated. And you also said something that really resonated where you said, you felt confident that if you if you learnt UX, and you were taught UX that you could figure it out, What gave you that confidence, as you were sort of making your decision? That yes, I have the confidence to invest in myself first and foremost, but also the confidence at the same time to know that I can get through this.

Lyndsey: I honestly just think 2020. I just was like, it can't get any worse than that. I literally was just saying to a friend today. I was like, Do you remember when we were like using Clorox wipes at the groceries? Yeah, anyway. So if I learned UX. And it takes me a while to find the job. Like, what's the worst that can happen? So I think for me, that put everything in to perspective because it was the push I needed for the career switch. We know for a while, that what we're doing isn't right. It's just getting pushed to the edge to actually do something about it. Right? Yes. So I've known, gosh, five years. Like that I that I was like, okay, I'm not going to be in healthcare forever. Like, I'm not retiring from this. Then it just becomes about okay, but what's next, like, what am I good at? What do I do well, and then like, how does that actually become like a viable career?

Samaya: I think I was fortunate to have Khrys who would always push me off the ledge, and then I would always push her off the ledge throughout our careers. And I think this is why we're partners. We'd like compare our salaries. And she'd be like, Samaya, you're earning way less than you should and then I would go make something more and then I'd be like, Khrys, it's time for you to level up. Like, it wasn't competition. It was more like, we were doubting ourselves and our worth, and we needed somebody else to tell us: y are worth that price. Because look, I made it now so you can make it too because we were in this together. We've been in it together in this career from day one. And I think having that nudge is what all of us need, even to this day that imposter syndrome of is it worth it to invest in myself? Is it worth it to tell the hiring manager, I should be a UX manager or head of product? That sounds too fancy. And there's always that doubt, which is interesting. I don't know where I was going with that. But I think to the point about the pandemic of what's the worst that could happen. And it felt like this is the worst that could happen. And now we're again heading into this uncertainty. And I guess what are your vibes from this phase of uncertainty?

“Like, yeah, we’re millennials, we’ve been through this. We’ve been through recession, like, we've been through housing crises.”

Lyndsey: I don't go on, like, any social media, like I curate my social media, like very strongly. Like, if I go on LinkedIn, I go directly to my profile, right? And then like, I search for whatever, I do not look at my feed. Because it's like, I can't be taking on like other people's stuff. Yeah. So I guess, this new sort of like, we're recession, yada, yada. I'm just sort of like, I mean, we're millennials. Like we went through a recession in 20. Let's see, I graduated college 2010. And I knew I was going directly to grad school, because I was doing healthcare and like, needed that. So. But like all my friends, it took them like forever to find a job. Like all my friends were like business majors. Like everybody was doing Teach for America. Like nobody could get a job. Like, yeah, we’re millennials, we’ve been through this. We’ve been through recession, like, we've been through housing crises.

Samaya: I'm so glad you have a more, you know, optimistic and motivated approach. It's really about creating opportunity, And I think it's actually made us all very introspective like you said. Work life balance. Work is not everything. Yes, you need a purpose. But also there's life. And there's also a whole lot of things you can do in life, and still make an impact even if your resume is not, you know, perfect for like a six month period or a nine month or a one year period. We are actually starting an Imposter to Empower conference, all around emotions, and more around designing your life with intention. So I think, as designers, we want to solve other people's problems a lot. And this is Khrys and my problem, which is we're kind of doing this for ourselves, too. And we solve everyone else's problems, like the company's problems, we help mentor. And then when it comes to our own problems, it's sometimes falling apart. And we're like, oh, where's the work life balance in my life? And it doesn't exist? And so now we're like, okay, how do we apply the design process that we know, to this? And can we actually apply it intentionally to our lives? And I'm curious- your project is more personal. It's not, you know, the typical healthcare projects or so I guess you already were thinking about that. So I'm curious about how you would use design right now to design your personal life, more than the workplace?

“I feel like the thing that I love the most about design, from what I know that so far is this idea of like the MVP, right? Because I struggle a lot with being a perfectionist, right?”

“Like, I'm like, the type A student, like, hyper controlling, like, everything's gotta go a certain way. And there was nothing more refreshing than just being like, let's just, like, throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks.”

Lyndsey: I feel like the thing that I love the most about design, from what I know that so far is this idea of like the MVP, right? Because I struggle a lot with being a perfectionist, right? Like, I'm like, the type a student, like, hyper controlling, like, everything's gotta go a certain way. And there was nothing more refreshing than just being like, let's just, like, throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks. Like, let's just come up with a bunch of ideas, show them to people and see what they like, right? So I just feel like I started trying to use that idea in my own life of just like, just see what's right, like, stop overthinking everything, and just try and trust that, like, if it's not meant for you, you'll know it. And then you'll pivot to something else. Right. So whether that's like, career change, rather than dating, whether that's like, relationship with my family. Like, because it was not meant for you. It's not meant for you.

Samaya: Thank you for telling it like it is that it's so true. I guess those are all my questions. So do you have anything else that you'd like to talk about as we kind of wrap things up?

Lyndsey: I love that you guys did the, like, the grouping at, like, with the peers at the, like, the design part of it. That was great for me, because I had a lot of overwhelm during that piece of it. Because, like, number one, I was like, I know, this isn't my thing. But I also was like, okay, but is it not your thing, because you're telling yourself that it's not your thing, you know what I mean? So I was like, trying to, like, give it a chance. And like, so I was meeting with Rachel, every week, I'm like, she's so like, into the visuals. And like, she's amazing. And I just was like, it was so not my jam. But it was great to, like, meet with Rachel. And it was, it was great to have Laura in my group. Because she's like, so visual, and was like, explaining all this stuff to me and it was like, all going over my head. And I didn’t know what she's talking about. But it just like, felt good to just like be talking to each other like, like your peers, right? And just like learning and just like showing up even if you don't really know what's going on. And like, you don't really care to know what's going on. Like, I for someone who is very inclined to research I found like the peer part was super helpful in the design piece.

Samaya: I can totally relate because Khrys and I partnered up because she's the opposite of me. But she's also the complement of me. And she's pushed me in ways. So we rub off on each other, that's for sure.

Lyndsey: Yeah, it's, I mean, it's so collaborative. And like, it's such a great feel. And I just, it's lovely. Like it put me onto the nicest people in the field. Like, I spoke with two other of your mentors, I spoke to Jarvis. And just thought it was important to talk to another person of color in this space to get like the realty. And so that was great. He was very supportive, very kind. And it just was like more of like, okay, like, I really do want to do this. And then I met with John just because he was like a pure researcher. And that was cool. It was like, overwhelming, because he's like, he like gave me all this like knowledge. Obviously, like, Rachel was my mentor throughout the thing. So I felt like that piece was great. Yeah, so yeah, that was all it was all great.